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sespe92
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 01:03 AM |
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| In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a low car count if the racing is competitive, which with the NoST is always the case. And if there was ENORMOUS car counts, the shows could potentialy run very long, which could also cause complaints, so really I think the NoST is fantastic the way it is right now.
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mesprint69
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 01:34 AM |
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speedbuggy wrote: mesprint69 wrote: YES they were! Not counting speedweek( always good for that ) Only 26 cars is not a good car count. They used to get 40 cars on an average. Skagit cars weren`t legal and we lost guys like Jimmy Trulley, Herman Klein and some other Cali guys that ran here frequently. Both Trulli and Klein ran NST this past year. Like I said , SPEEDWEEK aside! 26 cars!
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mesprint69
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 01:48 AM |
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Bluteam wrote: http://www.nwracechat.com/view_topic.php?id=1877&forum_id=11
So what has changed?
June 16th - thats it. What has changed is we no longer have Fred`s leadership! Is Cottage Grove or Medford still planning on making the change? Anyone know for sure? So far ONLY GHR has made the switch! Sorry but that`s a fact! Until other tracks make the commitment, NST or NSCS car counts will suffer. I wish we lived in a perfect world and everyone made the switch to ASCS at the same time, But at least we can have Skagit cars and Cali cars come if this restrictor plate deal works! Why is it a BAD thing?
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speedbuggy
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 01:53 AM |
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| I believe there were around 40 cars at the Thursday race during the Big E, and Herm Klein was one of the 26 cars at Lebanon. (Set fast time) A number of cars at Skagit have gone to ASCS heads and are doing quite well. 2nd place at their open show. I agree with Greg it would be a step back. Teams already have had 3 years to convert.
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mesprint69
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 02:03 AM |
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| I still consider that thursday race a special event in conjunction with NaST. The real tell will be this weekend. Most points racing is over and we will see what happens. I WANT good racing and 40 cars! Hope for the best! I just think a lot of good cars are being excluded from racing with NST because their track hasn`t made the switch. Not their fault if they want to be able to race their home track and be competitive .
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sprintdan
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 02:05 AM |
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I think it's time for some people to do some homework.... As far as the ASCS head vs. the open heads, there really isn't that much difference. The ASCS head is an -11X head that hasn't been hogged out yet. The numbers for ASCS motors are not that far off of the open motors. It has been proven a few times that the ASCS motors run right with the open ones as witnessed at the 360 show at Skagit this year, with Seth Bergman finishing 2nd to Rutz, and then again at the Kasey/Smoke show. Henry Van Damm has also shown that they are right there. Billy Nutter won the NST championship last year with one, against the open motors (yes, with a weight restriction, but still did it). Grays Harbor Raceway this year on a weekly basis, was the most competitive I have ever been a part of and I can't wait to do it all again next year. As far as cost, you can pick up a bare set of ASCS heads for under $2K, and then fill them with your choice of parts. The highest price I have seen for a set is about $5K fully stuffed with the best there is. That is half of what I have heard a good set of open heads is going for, and for what, about 30-40 horses? A good driver can make up for that.
This is only my opinion, but if you want to keep the costs down, but be competitive, the ASCS rule is the only way to go. As it is always said, if you are worried about spending money, then you shouldn't be racing, but there is a way for us to keep the bleeding to a minimum. Can't wait to go play in Yakidega next weekend.
Dan Dunlap
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mdtroy
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 02:30 AM |
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The NSCS talks about using a restrictor gasket.
Why would anyone want to spend $10,000 to $12,000 on a set of heads (which is numbers I have heard, didn't spend that myself) to only have it restricted, when they can spend $2,000 to $5,000 and get in line with the rest of the country.
Let's see $12,000 for one set of heads or $5,000 for one set of heads and now you can buy 30+ NEW RR tires and still be money ahead!
Last edited on Friday Sep 15th, 2006 02:31 AM by mdtroy
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skinny42
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 04:36 AM |
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I love this. We are getting some educated answers from people that know what they are talking about.
The NSCS gasket rules arent set, if I read the webpage right. Who knows how it will pan out in the end?
I think we all want to see more cars and the competitive racing!!! Thats a given. We'll see how it all plays out, I am very excited (as always) for this weekend, I'm actually trekking to CG for the show. Can't wait.
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Bluteam
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 04:46 AM |
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mesprint69 wrote: .What has changed is we no longer have Fred`s leadership!
Sorry mesprint, but I would disagree. Fred is among all of us, including those who now choose to try and take apart what he worked for. It is only how we choose to make decisions in his absence that discredits, or gives strength to, his leadership. I just returned home from a 4 hour trip and meeting to continue on with what he taught me. It would have been easier to stay home this evening and pretend he wasn't around anymore.
I think a more appropriate question in all of this, is why after several years, there are those reluctant to get on board the ASCS program. I have no dog in this fight. I do not stand to gain or lose from it. I only know the answers to the questions I posed to Fred whenever we discussed things. I asked out of curiosity, and a willingness to understand why things happen.
While not direct quotes to my questions - the gest of the answer is this:
Why a spec head? "Because I'm sick of going to the PRI show every year only to see the newest, latest, and greatest cylinder head for a 360." He went on to explain his experience with cost for the 410 program he had in Knoxville, and how 360's were becoming the same thing.
Why not a restrictor? "Because it won't eliminate the extravagant head work people will do to overcome the restriction."
Like I said - not direct quotes, but simple answers for me to understand. I can't say if it's right or wrong, only that I understand the concept.
As for car counts - another thing he taught me: It's not the number of cars in the show - its the show in the number of cars.
Still learning every day.
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sprintcarz
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 05:28 AM |
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mdtroy wrote: The NSCS talks about using a restrictor gasket.
Why would anyone want to spend $10,000 to $12,000 on a set of heads (which is numbers I have heard, didn't spend that myself) to only have it restricted, when they can spend $2,000 to $5,000 and get in line with the rest of the country.
I would guess that an advantage over the ACSC heads (even with the restrictor) was the reason for not "down grading" a motor with ASCS.
Or stated best- why buy ASCS heads when you can add a few pounds, insert a restrictor gasket and or injector reducers? Because any or all these things will do little to create a level playing field for ASCS headed motors.
Unless the non ASCS weight rule is 300lbs more and the injectors are reduced to 1 7/8" and the intake gasket has an opening that is equivalent to size of "insert somebody's name here" brain, the advantage will go to the open motor vs the average ASCS motor.
Now to address the money issue- Yes, it can be quite expensive to change over to ASCS. Three thousand is the low end and not very realistic if you are already a competitive racer. At least Nine Thousand to change over is more realistic for; heads, injector, cam and pistons.
So given the option to change over to ASCS or increase the horse power of an open motor, I'd spend the money to upgrade the open motor and then do whatever is needed to add weight, install injection reducers & intake gaskets. Yes spend more to restrict and you can gain an advantage.
The new owners of the new series are going to conduct some tests to identify the advantage of unrestricted heads vs. ASCS heads. Upon that we will likely see some type of rule to create a perceived disadvantage for the open headed cars.
My question is will the tests factor the optimum hp and torque generated by an open 360? And what is the base factor of the ASCS motor? Will they use the optimum numbers for this too? It sure would not be fair if they used high end number for both platforms.
In my opinion I think all of this is a big slap in the face of the somebody that had more vision than we were able to realize. The plan to migrate to an ASCS engine platform was not implemented overnight and our leader knew that a majority of the owners may not see immediate benefits from this investment. However, on more than one occasion he stressed that the long term benefits would be apparent soon. You don't think he was selling us a bag of BS do you? So why be persistent to change what is not broken and has the potential for longterm gain?
When the ACSC head rule was implemented (initially it was a USCS stamped head by a different mfg) I questioned why a SERIES promoter would align himself with an organization like ASCS. After all, they were a competitor of NST- both selling a product to race track promoters. So, it really did not make sense to align yourself with the competitor. And while we will never know how far we were into his plan. I was present at a public meeting when the GHFB was told that ASCS was going to be a major part of the 2006 NoST Speed Week, complete with nationally recognized drivers and one or two that seem to draw a big crowd. Unfortunately, this never materialized. Why, I'm not sure.
Yes June 16, 2006 changed much for us. But it didn't have too and still does not need to. On the other side of the coin, if I was to step-up and buy a race series I'd run it the way I wanted to. And if racers didn't like it they could go play elsewhere- like maybe an ASCS NW Region series.
Keep the NST an ASCS rule series & let JP and the other guy have their rules. I'd put my money on good leadership combined with a rule book that enforces cost containment over a promoter that wants everybody to race at their track while ignoring the continuously skyrocketing maintenance and upgrade costs associated with open 360 rules.
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mdtroy
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 05:29 AM |
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mesprint69 wrote: Bluteam wrote: http://www.nwracechat.com/view_topic.php?id=1877&forum_id=11
So what has changed?
June 16th - thats it. What has changed is we no longer have Fred`s leadership! Is Cottage Grove or Medford still planning on making the change? Anyone know for sure? So far ONLY GHR has made the switch! Sorry but that`s a fact! Until other tracks make the commitment, NST or NSCS car counts will suffer. I wish we lived in a perfect world and everyone made the switch to ASCS at the same time, But at least we can have Skagit cars and Cali cars come if this restrictor plate deal works! Why is it a BAD thing?
Word I heard this evening is that Cottage grove is moving forward on their original plan to go to ASCS next year.
Things that make you go HHMMMMMMMMMM????????????
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Bluteam
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 05:46 AM |
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sprintcarz wrote: I was present at a public meeting when the GHFB was told that ASCS was going to be a major part of the 2006 NoST Speed Week, complete with nationally recognized drivers and one or two that seem to draw a big crowd. Unfortunately, this never materialized. Why, I'm not sure.
Dang you have a good memory! But to be fair, no pun intended, there was a couple of nationally recognized drivers. 
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sprintcarz
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 05:53 AM |
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Bluteam wrote: Dang you have a good memory! But to be fair, no pun intended, there was a couple of nationally recognized drivers. In refering to the one or two that seem to draw a crowd- I was refering to one that is good at getting out of contracts and the other that has had a problem or two with the media. I think the second one is also a favorite of a certain GHR official- the boss must have been thinking of his staff.
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Bluteam
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 05:58 AM |
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sprintcarz wrote: I think the second one is also a favorite of a certain GHR official- the boss must have been thinking of his staff.  That - is funny.
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SMOKINJOE98
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 06:21 AM |
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I know this is a new situation of "fragmented motor rules" on the west coast. However, being from Montana we have been running an ASCS engine program for east of the rockies races and an open motor program when we come to the west coast for four years. Last year we finally were able to have only one engine. Here is what we have seen out here.
When the open head cars are allowed to show up, many of the ASCS racers don't come because they feel they are at a disadvantage no matter what gaskets or weight or intake restrictors you put on the open cars. The 100 pound weight advantage wasn't an advantage at all because who can realistically get their car down to 1450 with driver (unless you have a big budget and a little shoe). The gaskets don't work because to adequately make sure someone isn't cheating by cutting out the gasket or moving the bolt holes the open head guys would have to take their injections off nearly every show(what a pain). The restrictors haven't gotten small enough to prove to be a difference. Bottom line is: it is very tough to make a limiter that will equalize both torque and hp.
Here's problem #2. Some people say you can make up for the horsepower difference with a good driver. Right. So when Roger Crockett or Travis Rutz shows up with an open motor and the track is heavy for the main do you really think you are going to pull some skills out of your helmet that those guys don't have??? The NST/WoO style format is very dependent on good qualifying (and that is where HP really shows). I know somebody will say, "there was this one race this one time where the guy with 40 hp less really did good," but on an average the more Hp you have the faster you go in qualifying. If you want to argue that fact then why the heck does everybody look for more hp at all? Trust me, there is nothing more frustrating than watching some open motor pull away on the straights when you gain every corner with your ascs pee-shooter.
The guys who have the open motors and are sitting home knew what the rules would be this year, and this has been known for a few years coming. Why did they invest in an open motor? Because the last few years it has been an advantage. Racers will do anything to get an advantage and unless the rules are as uniform as possible someone will find a way to make those open motors run like open motors. The more differences you have in rules the more opportunity there will be to have very unequal fields of cars. Even when the head rules are uniform a number of drivers crawl out of the car at the end of the night and say, "that guy's got more motor than me. That's our problem." Don't compound this by giving them a place to point to in the rule book.
I do feel bad for the guys who have had the same motor for four years or five years and now can't run ASCS shows. Fact is a set of open heads from 2001 wouldn't be competitive if it was all open motors anyway. But, putting a set of ascs heads on that engine would mean that they can run it and be competitive until those heads fall apart from old age. If only we have a uniform ascs head rule.
The last ostrich motor I had was an ascs engine that was new in 97. I bought it used in 99 and ran it until 2004 and won 18 races with it including two of the last four we ran. All we did was freshen it every 35-40 races and put valve springs in it after every 18 shows. Never did I have a problem with it of any kind. Show me a set of open heads that can get you that kind of service from 1999-2004 and I will agree that there is little difference between open motors and ascs heads.
OK, OK...sorry about writing the book here. This has been a source of frustration for me for many years. Winning races all over the ASCS arena and then going to the coast to look like an idiot hasn't been very fun. Finally when things went ASCS we were able to compete on equal footing. But now it looks like things are going back and I have to admit, I've had it with towing a thousand miles to race against a system of rules that often end up making my team look slow. If things go back to open you will not see my car in Washington or Oregon next year.
Just my thoughts...not trying to upset anyone. Joe
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mesprint69
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 02:23 PM |
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Just my thoughts...not trying to upset anyone. Joe
Far from it Joe, Guy`s like you and Dan D are what this is all about! The NST has been the NW "gathering of the clans" for years. I know Fred`s plan for the future was ASCS. I hope eventually guy`s like Beitler and JP see the light. But , like I stated before, these growing pains suck. After hearing how you guys who have made the switch feel about things , I can definatly see your point. I`m also glad to hear that CG is still going forward with plans to implement ASCS. It`s good to hear that some Skagit teams have made the switch to ASCS on their own. If enough were to do that maybe they can force a change there. Time will tell... Still two weekends to go!
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tippover
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 03:00 PM |
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This topic is certinally one that has debates on both sides. But there is one underlying thing that has come up over and over and people are just missing the point. The vast majority of the country is going ASCS. If you have an ASCS car you can run at more tracks than you have money for and be competitive at all of them. WHY DOES WASHINGTON SPRINT CAR RACING HAVE TO BE SO @@@@ UP!!!!!!! Why are folks not seeing the vision of Fred when he went to ACSCS??? It was confusing with Open vs. ASC alone. Now we are trying to gum up the works with even more bull by restrictors and gaskets and all the other mumbo jumbo crap on motors? FOR WHAT?? To even a playing field?? to make competition??? So some racer doesn't cry in his beer because he's not competitive?? One thing I know for a fact is this: I am the Crew Chief for a team that has a ASCS Motor. Our DYNO sheets are within 2HP of one of the best Shark motors built. We have proven this by beating them on the track, Several times. Its not always motor. there are alot of guys out there that just plain can't set up a car and drive it and they feel that if they went ACSC they would be at a disadvantage. WAKE UP, YOU ARE AT A DISADVANTAGE ALREADY. It wouldn't matter what motor these guys had they would still not be competitive. Then what? Where does it end? Here is a scinerio for you. "All open motors must have 1mm spark plug wires with one plug taken out, with a fel pro gasket covering at least 32/64ths of one intake port with a peice of tape no thicker than 1mil. but not less than 1/2 mil. with at least 25 shows on said head. if less than 25 shows then all the rules above apply except you must remove 2 spark plugs and say 2 hail marys before entering said track because you may really beat someone on the track and you will offend and make them cry.
I'm all over the place here but really. "Someone hulk up and LEAD here. Stop being a bunch of sheep"
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mesprint69
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 03:52 PM |
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Someone hulk up and LEAD here. Stop being a bunch of sheep"
Looks like thats what the Wilskey`s are trying to do.
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rickt
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 03:54 PM |
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mesprint69 wrote: Someone hulk up and LEAD here. Stop being a bunch of sheep"
Looks like thats what the Wilskey`s are trying to do.
I would have to agree with that
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Michelle N.
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 05:15 PM |
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I said I wouldn't do this-BUT-
I think if you look at RESULTS by ASCS motors vs open motors and the NST championship last year, lots of WINS by ASCS motors, plus the top two in the championship, plus rookie of the year and 4th in points. (I don't know if Crockett ran an ASCS 100% of the time, so not including him.)
Cost-yes you can spend big bucks on ascs, but I'll let you in on a little secret-both ASCS motors we currently run cost us less than 20,000 dollars and one is brand new from an engine builder in Nebraska.
We ran against open motors all year at Medford and Cottage Grove and did quite well!
I would also like to publicly thank Mike and Janie Doyle of Doyle's Harley Davidson, Combined Transport, Wicked Willie's Graphics, Menne Hay Ranch, Visa and Mastercard (LOL!) for helping to keep our car on the track. We appreciate all the help you've given us, and just saying thank you doesn't seem enough.
Michelle Nutter
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GregB
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Posted: Friday Sep 15th, 2006 06:13 PM |
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Hey everyone , great discussion lots of valuable input here. Before I continue on I would like to personally thank Shawna Wilskey for her time on Thursday as we literally discussed this all day through email. (and my desk shows that I was not doing my work
I guess one question that keeps coming into my head is:
What will going backwards gain us?
For example how many cars with open motors would commit to running the full 2007 season?
Along with committing to that ... within how many years would they agree to be fully transformed to ASCS?
I really think that you would not see that many more cars... my bet is 8 to 10 at tops but most likely we are talking about 3 to 5 cars and not at every show.
Want to prove me wrong? List out each driver that with an open motor that will commit to the 2007 Season?
Once we get that, we can then list each driver that has supported the series 100% and is currently ASCS but will no longer support it because the rules were changed.
Again... my bet ... the scale will be dead even.
Promoter(s) are who need to make a change NOT car owners/drivers.
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SR
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Posted: Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 07:20 AM |
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| WOW 24 cars at the Grove tonight! Congrats to Seth Bergman on his first NST win!
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mdtroy
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Posted: Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 07:53 AM |
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mesprint69 wrote: Someone hulk up and LEAD here. Stop being a bunch of sheep"
Looks like thats what the Wilskey`s are trying to do.
Someone did that three or four years ago when he made the determination to go to the ASCS head rule, now the "new" group is actually bring us back three or four years.
With Grays Harbor already there, Cottage Grove and Medford following close behind, we need to really think about who this rule is really for.............
Haven't gathered all of the info yet, but looking at AK's all time winners list for the NST it seems as though there is only a small handfull of "Skagit" regulars that support the series full time and so why is this hard to figure out.
We still haven't seen any list as was requested by Mr. Burgess. How many OPEN headed cars will support the new series FULL time in 2007?
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mesprint69
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Posted: Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 04:00 PM |
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Haven't gathered all of the info yet, but looking at AK's all time winners list for the NST it seems as though there is only a small handfull of "Skagit" regulars that support the series full time and so why is this hard to figure out.
What the NST has always been is " a small handfull of regulars" from all of the sprint car tracks in the region. I really don`t think GHR had any more than Skagit when it came to road trips. But that small handfull from some areas has diminished even more. Why would a team want to buy an ASCS motor to race the relatively small schedule that the NST has, when they know it would put them at a disadvantage on their home turf. That is their bread and butter. The Sprint Teams don`t make the rules, they have to now make a choice who`s rules they can afford to comply with .
As for setting racing here back 3 or 4 years, some may even say the ASCS rule has done the same thing by splintering the rules for the NW.
I think someone, maybe Shawna, might consider a summit meeting involving 360 Sprint Promotors, owners and drivers to get everyones concerns out on the table, and see if some compromises can be made and decide whats best for the NW future.
24 cars at the Grove last night...not worth the two hour drive!!
Last edited on Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 04:17 PM by mesprint69
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Nobby
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Posted: Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 05:05 PM |
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What a great, great thread.
From this fans perspective:
Wasn't the whole point of 360 motors in general to keep costs down? If you're going to run an open 360 motor for 12 or 15 race dates over a season, why not just do 410's? I'm guessing it's not that different cost wise
Promoters are who need to change, not car owners and drivers
Why? If Beitler and Padjen don't want to change, that's their business, literally. I don't want to get all geopolitical here, but if an ASCS head is the way to go, eventually those 2 promoters will lose cars to tracks and series that ARE ASCS. There is one track in Cali that's been an ASCS track for years now. Free markets, etc, etc, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda
Besides, if it's good enough for The Nutters, Smokin' Joe Ramaker and The Wilskies, it's good enough for me.
Dunlap is a different matter altogether....
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Bluteam
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Posted: Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 07:48 PM |
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GregB wrote:
Want to prove me wrong? List out each driver that with an open motor that will commit to the 2007 Season?
maybe the 5/3X thats just what I heard somewhere
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sprintdan
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Posted: Sunday Sep 17th, 2006 08:45 PM |
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Nobby, And just what are you trying to say?????? What did I ever do to you??? LOL
Are you going to Yakidega?
Later,
Dan
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AKunas
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Posted: Monday Sep 18th, 2006 07:31 AM |
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No comment on the ASCS deal until at least next weekend...don't know as much about the tech part of sprint car racing as I should, and I intend do a little investigation and learning at Yakima, and I may just write something on it.
As for my winners list website that some mentioned in this thread...I may discontinue it. As you can see, it's hardly been touched in the last while. I may keep the all-time NoST winners list though since some of you folks deem it of relevance.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to typing my little thing for Michelle Nutter's special scrapbook for a certain someone.
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Michelle N.
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Posted: Monday Sep 18th, 2006 03:20 PM |
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Great-thank you!
____________________
RIP Fast Freddie Brownfield #92
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts"
--Winston Churchill
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GregB
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Posted: Monday Sep 18th, 2006 07:53 PM |
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SR wrote: WOW 24 cars at the Grove tonight! Congrats to Seth Bergman on his first NST win!
24 good cars and very compettive race again...... and yes congrats to Seth.
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http://www.nwracetalk.com
Want your next vacation to benefit NW Motorsports? http://www.beachhutvacations.com
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Tom11
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Posted: Monday Sep 18th, 2006 08:04 PM |
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| It's still better than the 19 cars we had a Willamette last year . . . when the open motors were allowed.
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SR
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 03:43 PM |
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| I count 41 cars at last years season opener at Willamette.....not sure where you get 19 from.
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Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. - Mark Twain
Smokedya!
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Sprint17
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 03:54 PM |
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| I think they are talkin about night 1 of the two day Lebabanon/Cottage Grove race, Mr Rice!
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When the Dust clears I will see ya on the podium
RIP 92
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SR
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 04:13 PM |
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| Then they forgot it rained out last year. You would have to go back to 2004 to see less than 40 cars down there. Season opener last year was 41 and speedweek was 50.
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Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. - Mark Twain
Smokedya!
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PAUL
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 04:24 PM |
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| You are 100% right SR. I was so bummed that year to miss the season opener.
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GregB
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 05:29 PM |
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GregB wrote: Want to prove me wrong? List out each driver that with an open motor that will commit to the 2007 Season?
Promoter(s) are who need to make a change NOT car owners/drivers.
going once..... going twice........... 2nd request.
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Bluteam
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 05:32 PM |
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GregB wrote: GregB wrote: Want to prove me wrong? List out each driver that with an open motor that will commit to the 2007 Season?
Promoter(s) are who need to make a change NOT car owners/drivers.
going once..... going twice........... 2nd request.
I tried to bait the 5/3X into it - but he was holding a higher card!
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sprintcarz
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 05:39 PM |
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| Not just one card- but a 10 & 9. I wonder if "ACE" has more than I? Because nothing beats a good memory. GHRP message board 2004.
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Tom11
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 05:41 PM |
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| You do know your statistics Shawn. It was Sept. 10, 2004. 22 cars showed, 2-3 wrecked in heats and no B-main was run. My point is the Sept. races in Oregon are always poorly attended, open motor or ASCS motor.
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SR
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Posted: Tuesday Sep 19th, 2006 06:27 PM |
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| Funny before there was ever mention of ASCS back in 2001 there was 37 cars in September. You guys hold whatever cards you want in your hands.....just remember I'm the dealer.
____________________
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. - Mark Twain
Smokedya!
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